If narcissists are able to psychologically penetrate their victims is this skill part of the disease or is it something else?

Answer 1

I put this post on top so you would see it. I wanted to tell you that you are doing all the right thing, and that's seeing a good therapist. Just think of it this way; there are over 6 billion people in the world and we all have different personalities. Some personalities may be the same to a point, but there is always that "little extra something" to make each person different. No wonder many of us wonder whether we are crazy and the rest of the world is sane!

When I was reading up on this topic I came up with the same ... "paranoid aggressive type." You know him better than I do, so it's odd we both came up with the same conclusion.

The fact he has had less than successful past relationships, has police reports on him and has not taken any responsibility for any of it will be his own downfall. When we fall in love it's easy to believe what we are told. We can't go through life mistrusting everyone we meet. Narcissists are great chameleons and they are extremely intelligent (unfortunately they don't use this intelligence in a good way.) Be thankful you got out before things even got worse. Don't beat yourself up over it. Remember, YOU had the last word and not him! "The head of the snake always turns around and bites you in the butt" which means simply that "he'll get his in spades!" My bet is before the year is out he'll be in prison where he should have been a long time ago. Since therapists are just delving into narcissistic behaviors, and because there are so many types of them, we can hardly be expected to know how to deal with it. You did nothing wrong and everything right! You got away! Keep up the good work and before you know it you'll find someone very special. I know that it doesn't seem possible at this point in your life, but well over half of men are good guys and sometimes we just stumble on a few of the rotten apples in the barrel.

Good luck!

AnswerNarcissism is not a disease but a condition. It can be caused from the environment the person grew up in, or, they could have simply picked up narcissistic traits along the way. Most humans have some narcissistic traits to them, but don't use it constantly to hurt others. Sometimes it's passed off as "perfectionism" or just being plain stubborn and opinionated.

Narcissists know exactly what they are doing and they weave their web of deceit around their victim. They usually choose woman that are kind, loving and trusting (but, many women are not weak at all.) The narcissist is such a chameleon they can fool most people so before the victim knows what hit them they are caught up in a very nasty and mind-bending relationship (leaving the victim to second-guess their own mental stability.) Narcissists are anti-social and will often get into arguments with people at parties or even in the workplace. They feel they are more intelligent and their way is the right way. Victims of abuse of any sort are women from all walks of life and all races. They can be lawyers, doctors, or hold a high position in a company. Once the Narcissist gets a hold of them these victims become totally confused and have lost their own identity. Hopefully at some point in the relationship the victim will get away from their Narcissist. Men can also be victims of a Narcissistic woman.

re:clarificationThanks Marcy. I have read through your post and believe my narcissist was a paranoid aggressive type. I suppose he has had a lot of practice with manipulation because he is damn good at it! I question every relationship he has ever had before ours. He told me sad stories about them all. I did find a copy of a very disturbing police report filed against my ex from an old girlfriend of his. It was in a box of things he'd left behind. There were some frightening charges listed. Rape, drug abuse, theft, domestic violence...He told me such a different story! I am dumbfounded at how I could have been so fooled.Your posts really help Marcy. I am thankful for everyone that contributes. Figuring this stuff out helps me to let go. It seems that the more I understand the more inner peace I feel. It is a slow process!

Clarify pleasI read a lot of your posts and they have helped a lot. Thank you. I asked this question originally and I guess I am having a hard time getting my meaning across. I will try to clarify, and maybe you will have some input? I hope so. My counselor told me that N's possess a particular talent for "mind manipulation" due to the fact that they are able to read people so well. What I really want to know is, how do they come about this talent? It would seem that they possess this skill to a greater degree than the average person. It is as if they are almost mind-reading, which to me seems to be an almost supernatural quality. Are they just keenly observant? Do they study people and are thus able to predict responses? Does their brain indeed possess a unique quality that enables them to do this? Is it an adaptive function,a by-product of their condition? I am still stumped that my ex knew me so well and was able to penetrate and manipulate me so perfectly. I am still struggling to get past the hurt and violation I suffered. This seems significantly more difficult than any other end-of-relationship struggle I have ever dealt with (?) How do they secure a hold on our minds and hearts that is so compelling? How do they get into our very thoughts and bend them to their will? AnswerI just read this and what an excellently written series of questions. This is really beyond my scope but I will make my own simple, honest comment. My ex N never penetrated my mind. He never knew what I was thinking. He simply preyed upon my love. He knew he had me, he knew I was in love with him, therefore he knew I would give my all for him. Nothing supernatural about that, now is there? Love is all encompassing, and N's are very astute in manipulation...period. They cannot love, but they know what it is, and how they can use it to fill their needs. Crafty, yes...supernatural, no. All of their actions are defense mechanisms, and they learn it all in a hit or miss type lifestyle. Through experience, they know all sorts of games to play to get what they want and if one doesn't work, there's another in their bag of tricks. We know the weak points of our loved ones but we don't manipulate them to get what we want because we know that is morally wrong. That just doesn't matter to the N, what he wants is what he wants and if he has to step on you or over you, he will. My N never penetrated my mind. He thought he could have his cake and eat it too. Well, now I am gone...I chose to love him and I chose to leave him, and believe me, the leaving part was in my head a long time ago. I just gave him too much time and too much help. I chose to give too much of myself to someone who still has nothing. If he could only see in my mind and the minds of others he has hurt, he would be deluged in such mind-bending pain, sorrow and regret that he would curl right up into a ball and die, or have to be committed. Peace to you. ClarificationI was the one the who posted the first post. Your question is a valid one but psychology is not a proven science and studies on narcissistic behavior are basically uncharted territory for psychologist/psychiatrists although they are coming up with some very good findings. Narcissists are evasive and foxy and can mesh into most situations around them so it's difficult for the professionals to get a "bead on" narcissistic patients. The narcissist plays the game with the pros! This is why you won't get a true answer to your question. It's simply uncharted territory. Your therapist is correct and that much many of us know.

The narcissist IS NOT with magical powers or CANNOT mind-read. He/she has simply had lots of practice. If you put it in this perspective "have you not manipulated someone in your life to get something you wanted?" If any of us say we haven't (even the smallest of things) then we'd be telling a lie. Society is about manipulation and narcissism is rising greatly because it's "dogs going after one large bone" out in the modern world. YOU ARE WHAT YOU ARE FROM YOUR ENVIRONMENT, meaning that if you come from a family that has sexually/verbally abused you, or your family has high expectations of you or they too are narcissistic then that is what you will carry on your back through your life unless you get professional help.

The reason you feel your narcissistic ex could mind-read is because you were "blind-sided." Narcissists are manipulative and create a web of deceit. It has nothing to do with the fact that you aren't intelligent enough to catch on to what is happening to you, but the fact that narcissists are masters of deceit and manipulation and have been taught well from childhood to adulthood. The prey on their victims. It's like "being stalked mentally!"

The jury is out on whether Narcissists are born this way. However, studies are going full-bore on narcissistic behavior. It's complicated and even your therapist will tell you that. I would think with both the parents' genes (if one or both were narcissistic) then the chances of at least one of their children becoming narcissistic is great. Parents are the mentors of their children so it stands to reason that one or both parents has a lot to do with the narcissistic attitude of their child(ren.)

"A surprising ... fact in the process of self-splitting is the sudden change of the object relation that has become intolerable, into narcissism. The man abandoned by all gods escapes completely from reality and creates for himself another world in which he ... can achieve everything that he wants. If he has been unloved, even tormented, he now splits off from himself a part which in the form of a helpful, loving, often motherly minder commiserates with the tormented remainder of the self, nurses him and decides for him ... with the deepest wisdom and most penetrating intelligence. He is ... a guardian angel (that) sees the suffering or murdered child from the outside, he wanders through the whole universe seeking help, invents phantasies for the child that cannot be saved in any other way ... But in the moment of a very strong, repeated trauma even this guardian angel must confess his own helplessness and well-meaning deceptive swindles ... and then nothing else remains but suicide ..."

[Ferenczi and Sandor - "Notes and Fragments" - International Journal of Psychoanalysis - Vol XXX (1949), p. 234]

The study of narcissism is a century old and the two scholarly debates central to its conception are still undecided. Is there such a thing as HEALTHY adult narcissism (Kohut) - or are all the manifestations of narcissism in adulthood pathological (Freud, Kernberg)? Moreover, is pathological narcissism the outcome of verbal, sexual, physical, or psychological abuse (the overwhelming view) - or, on the contrary, the sad result of spoiling the child and idolizing it (Millon, the late Freud)?

The second debate is easier to resolve if one agrees to adopt a more comprehensive definition of "abuse". Overweening, smothering, spoiling, overvaluing, and idolizing the child - are all forms of parental abuse.

This is because, as Horney pointed out, the child is dehumanized and instrumentalized. His parents love him not for what he really is - but for what they wish and imagine him to be: the fulfillment of their dreams and frustrated wishes. The child becomes the vessel of his parents' discontented lives, a tool, the magic brush with which they can transform their failures into successes, their humiliation into victory, their frustrations into happiness. The child is taught to ignore reality and to occupy the parental fantastic space. Such an unfortunate child feels omnipotent and omniscient, perfect and brilliant, worthy of adoration and entitled to special treatment. The faculties that are honed by constantly brushing against bruising reality - empathy, compassion, a realistic assessment of one's abilities and limitations, realistic expectations of oneself and of others, personal boundaries, team work, social skills, perseverance and goal-orientation, not to mention the ability to postpone gratification and to work hard to achieve it - are all lacking or missing altogether. The child turned adult sees no reason to invest in his skills and education, convinced that his inherent genius should suffice. He feels entitled for merely being, rather than for actually doing (rather as the nobility in days gone by felt entitled not by virtue of its merit but as the inevitable, foreordained outcome of its birth right). In other words, he is not meritocratic - but aristocratic. In short: a narcissist is born.

But such a mental structure is brittle, susceptible to criticism and disagreement, vulnerable to the incessant encounter with a harsh and intolerant world. Deep inside, narcissists of both kinds (those wrought by "classic" abuse and those yielded by being idolized) - feel inadequate, phony, fake, inferior, and deserving of punishment. This is Millon's mistake. He makes a distinction between several types of narcissists. He wrongly assumes that the "classic" narcissist is the outcome of overvaluation, idolization, and spoiling and, thus, is possessed of supreme, unchallenged, self-confidence, and is devoid of all self-doubt. According to Millon, it is the "compensatory" narcissist that falls prey to nagging self-doubts, feelings of inferiority, and a masochistic desire for self-punishment. Yet, the distinction is both wrong and unnecessary. There is only ONE type of narcissist - though there are TWO developmental paths to it. And ALL narcissists are besieged by deeply ingrained (though at times not conscious) feelings of inadequacy, fears of failure, masochistic desires to be penalized, a fluctuating sense of self-worth (regulated by Narcissistic Supply), and an overwhelming sensation of fakeness.

The Grandiosity Gap (between a fantastically grandiose - and unlimited - self-image and actual - limited - accomplishments and achievements) is grating. Its recurrence threatens the precariously balanced house of cards that is the narcissistic personality. The narcissist finds, to his chagrin, that people out there are much less admiring, accommodating and accepting than his parents. As he grows old, the narcissist often become the target of constant derision and mockery, a sorry sight indeed. His claims for superiority appear less plausible and substantial the more and the longer he makes them.

Pathological narcissism - originally a defense mechanism intended to shield the narcissist from an injurious world - becomes the main source of hurt, a generator of injuries, counterproductive and dangerous. Overwhelmed by negative or absent Narcissistic Supply, the narcissist is forced to let go of it.

This article appears in my book, "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited"

The narcissist then resorts to self-delusion. Unable to completely ignore contrarian opinion and data - he transmutes them. Unable to face the dismal failure that he is, the narcissist partially withdraws from reality. To soothe and salve the pain of disillusionment, he administers to his aching soul a mixture of lies, distortions, half-truths and outlandish interpretations of events around him. These solutions can be classified thus:

The Delusional Narrative Solution

The narcissist constructs a narrative in which he figures as the hero - brilliant, perfect, irresistibly handsome, destined for great things, entitled, powerful, wealthy, the centre of attention, etc. The bigger the strain on this delusional charade - the greater the gap between fantasy and reality - the more the delusion coalesces and solidifies.

Finally, if it is sufficiently protracted, it replaces reality and the narcissist's reality test deteriorates. He withdraws his bridges and may become schizotypal, catatonic, or schizoid.

The Antisocial Solution

The narcissist renounces reality. To his mind, those who pusillanimously fail to recognize his unbound talents, innate superiority, overarching brilliance, benevolent nature, entitlement, cosmically important mission, perfection, etc. - do not deserve consideration. The narcissist's natural affinity with the criminal - his lack of empathy and compassion, his deficient social skills, his disregard for social laws and morals - now erupt and blossom. He becomes a full fledged antisocial (sociopath or psychopath). He ignores the wishes and needs of others, he breaks the law, he violates all rights - natural and legal, he holds people in contempt and disdain, he derides society and its codes, he punishes the ignorant ingrates - that, to his mind, drove him to this state - by acting criminally and by jeopardizing their safety, lives, or property.

The Paranoid Schizoid Solution

The narcissist develops persecutory delusions. He perceives slights and insults where none were intended. He becomes subject to ideas of reference (people are gossiping about him, mocking him, prying into his affairs, cracking his e-mail, etc.). He is convinced that he is the centre of malign and mal-intentioned attention. People are conspiring to humiliate him, punish him, abscond with his property, delude him, impoverish him, confine him physically or intellectually, censor him, impose on his time, force him to action (or to inaction), frighten him, coerce him, surround and besiege him, change his mind, part with his values, victimize or even murder him, and so on.

Some narcissists withdraw completely from a world populated with such minacious and ominous objects (really projections of internal objects and processes). They avoid all social contact, except the most necessary. They refrain from meeting people, falling in love, having sex, talking to others, or even corresponding with them. In short: they become schizoids - not out of social shyness, but out of what they feel to be their choice. "This evil, hopeless world does not deserve me" - goes the inner refrain - "and I shall waste none of my time and resources on it."

The Paranoid Aggressive (Explosive) Solution

Other narcissists who develop persecutory delusions, resort to an aggressive stance, a more violent resolution of their internal conflict. They become verbally, psychologically, situationally (and, very rarely, physically) abusive. They insult, castigate, chastise, berate, demean, and deride their nearest and dearest (often well wishers and loved ones). They explode in unprovoked displays of indignation, righteousness, condemnation, and blame. Theirs is an exegetic Bedlam. They interpret everything - even the most innocuous, inadvertent, and innocent comment - as designed to provoke and humiliate them. They sow fear, revulsion, hate, and malignant envy. They flail against the windmills of reality - a pathetic, forlorn, sight. But often they cause real and lasting damage - fortunately, mainly to themselves.

The Masochistic Avoidant Solution

The narcissist is angered by the lack of narcissistic supply. He directs some of this fury inwards, punishing himself for his "failure". This masochistic behavior has the added "benefit" of forcing the narcissist's closest to assume the roles of dismayed spectators or of persecutors and thus, either way, to pay him the attention that he craves.

Self-administered punishment often manifests as self-handicapping masochism - a narcissistic cop-out. By undermining his work, his relationships, and his efforts, the increasingly fragile narcissist avoids additional criticism and censure (negative supply). Self-inflicted failure is the narcissist's doing and thus proves that he is the master of his own fate.

Masochistic narcissists keep finding themselves in self-defeating circumstances which render success impossible - and "an objective assessment of their performance improbable" (Millon, 2000). They act carelessly, withdraw in mid-effort, are constantly fatigued, bored, or disaffected and thus passive-aggressively sabotage their lives. Their suffering is defiant and by "deciding to abort" they reassert their omnipotence.

The narcissist's pronounced and public misery and self-pity are compensatory and "reinforce (his) self-esteem against overwhelming convictions of worthlessness" (Millon, 2000). His tribulations and anguish render him, in his eyes, unique, saintly, virtuous, righteous, resilient, and significant. They are, in other words, self-generated narcissistic supply.

Thus, paradoxically, the worst his anguish and unhappiness, the more relieved and elated such a narcissist feels!

I certainly hope this has helped you. You can already see that you having lived with a narcissist and therapists and society trying to figure them out is quite the task. There are so many types of narcissists as well, so that complicates things.