Suboxone

I am going to answer this with my own limited and highly speculative research. Because I would have liked this info to be easily available when I myself was looking for it. now I give my own research, which at least has theoretical merit. Give something back to the internet and enjoy it more!

Simple answerThe shortest and most accurate answer is an unconditional "yes". The following sections are theoretical reflections on the practicality of the synthesis regardless of route, something which is good to read and think about, if you are not willing to use unlimited resources (money/effort/time) to succeed. If you are most interested in my reflection on possible way to perform the actual chemical synthesis, look at the "Chemistry" section.

Less simple answer

A much more complete answer includes a question that was indirectly but very obviously asked in the original question: "how difficult is it compared to the results". or specific to this kitchen-chemistry subject: "can I practically do it with my abilities and equipment, and if so how much work will it require."

An experienced organic chemists can perform almost all imaginable reactions, that are theoretically physically and PRACTICALLY possible, which makes the synthesis of any chemically stable compound from ANY other stable compound theoretically and almost always physically possible. Most of the time, it is ALSO practically possible, however difficulty determines how practical is really is, but normally it is only a mater of time before even the most complex synthesis can be mastered, like the synthesis of morphine from non-biological sources, that is purely synthetic, which took a very long time to successfully perform, and is still considered a very impressive, extremely complicated acrobatic exercise in organic chemistry, even by the most experienced in the field; more on this synthesis later.

Correct question

As I said, I am absolutely sure, that the person who wrote the question did not mean "can it be done" but rather or at least ALSO wanted to know how difficult if would be; This can be illustrated by the fact, that one could in THEORY make fentanyl out of air and wood as those two together contain C, H, O, N and it IS possible to make a molecule from its constituent elements, but for complex molecules this is so difficult and expensive that no one chemical plant in the world performs all the steps from pure elements to complex, organic molecules. One plant make pure elements and/or the simplest molecules into larger building blocks, and then another plant buys these compounds and makes larger, more complex, organic molecules of say 4 - 15 carbon atoms, like amino acids and sugars, then another plant assembles these compounds into macromolecules such as proteins, nucleic acids (DNA / RNA), polysaccharides (sugar molecules bound together in long chains) such as starch and cellulose, this last step is as far as today's conventional chemical technology has come, but in the very near future it will most likely be possible to assembler the macromolecules into the next sted up in complexity: actually organic "machines", like the organelles of a cell, a virus and eventually functioning, living synthetic cells.

The problem about answering the more important question; "is it practical" and how does one measure whether something is "practical"? The former is often defined as how difficult/expensive the process is compared to the benefits of the product. In the "real" pharmaceutical industry, this would be a simple subtraction: Result = Value_of_product - Cost_Of_Production. If this is more than 0, the process is practical. I our case Value_of_product is less easy to measure as it describes some emotional component like the subjetive recreational value of one dosage times number of dosages obtained from the process subtracted by the emotional drain that the process takes on the chemist, and I can even see know, that it is better expressed non-mathematically: are the effects AND the amount of compound =number of dosages = time you can feel the effects with the amount synthesized worth the effort? Here again it differ, some people who are highly opioid-dependent are willing do perform tasks most non-dependent people would never dream of, like criminal acts such as theft, robbery other violence or acts most find pepople would find degrading, humilitating and emotionally devastating such as prostitution, pornography and begging. This is very unquantifiable and definately did not need that much text in this answer, but I felt pretty clever when I wrote it, and we are all compelled to repeat and prolong pleasant experiences, like drug use and masturbation. Now onto to the actual chemistry, which is a very absolute science, or is it?

Chemistry

The simple answer here is that with both nalaxone and naltrexone, we want to change the group attached to the N with with a simple methyl-group, which is most easily done by removing the group attached to N and then in another step attach the methyl group to the N and voila, oxymorphone;

Step 2:

The latter step is easy, can be done by reductive amination (RA) (at least in theory, as RA usually works better, when the amine is the smaller molecule, but I would guess that some of the N-methylated product would form, if enough is another matter), or maybe a more effective way would be electrophilic substitution with methyliodide or possible a different methyl-halide which are all electrophiles because of all halogens excluding At have higher electronegativity than carbon, thus the carbon atom will be electron deprived and will attack the electronrich N atom of the molecule; the N i any amine is nucleophilic because of the lonepair electrons and because of the partial negative charge on it, arising from the difference in electronegativity between carbon and nitrogen. If only considering partial charge in the possible methyl-halides, methyl-flouride seems to be the strongest electrophile, but the chemical litterature suggests that methyl-iodide is a better leaving group, so maybe also in this case it is prefered.

Step 1

The most obvious problem with this step is the fact, that the molecule i a tertiary amine, and the reaction will only be practical, if is takes signigicantly less energy to break the bond between the N and the open ended group than the two bonds between the N and the bulk of the molecule or viewed differently, the bonds in the piperidine ring; if this ring can be viewed seperately as a normal piperidine ring, then the reaction should be possible, as most rings has more stable bond to ring members than to substituents on the ring as in most substituted benzene-molecules it is easier to break off a substituent then breaking the ring itself. But this step remains tricky; if assuming that the openenden substituent on N in both naltrexone and naloxone can be expected to behave somewhat like methyl-piperidine, one can first oxidize it and then remove both the Me and O- by deoxygenative demethylation, which will produce a mixture of the desired product and byproducts, which can be hard to seperate.

Alternate step 1

Instead of breaking of the entire group on the N, one could look for a way to shorten it to a methyl group or something similar, that can be converted to a methyl group.

Conclusion

Both conversions are certainly practical, as the desired compund is almost identical to the two source compound, however it seems that to get a pure product and a good yield, one would have to invest in a lot of lab equipment and be a descent chemist. But if the first step can be simplified, it will become kitchen chemistry.

my mom is a nurse so in this case i know quite a bit about medicine, and as far as i know, loratabs are for depression. i would definitely not take those and try to skate or anything like that

More by S-B

The Lortabs I've been taking have been 10mg Hydrocodone pills mixed with APAP. If you take them while on Suboxone, either the analgesic (pain relieving) effects will be lost, or you will become sick much like during withdrawal. If you are going to use opiates, stop taking your Suboxone for a day or two prior.

WOW - Here is a correction.

Lortabs are not for depression... They are for moderate to severe pain.

Some opiate addicts might tell you that they are not depressed when taking them though but please realize that opiates are not used to treat depression.

Try a tri-cyclic or SSRI (selective seratonin reuptake inhibitor) for depression such as prozac, zoloft or even cymbalta.

Yes you can, I do it every day and Im on the two right now. I recently took 16 mgs of buprenorphine in the form of subutex and half hour later took 400 mgs of ultram (tramadol). So the answer is yes you can. I do not recommend the doseages I described, your mileage may vary. There is a wealth of information of this subject of you Google tramadol suboxone bluelight.

You MUST know that subutex is not the same thing as suboxone. Subutex does not contain naloxone, which can throw you into withdrawals if you take tramadol with it. I've been on suboxone for 101 days for....tramadol addiction. I know first-hand. If you take them together the naloxone will most likely negate any relief from the tramadol, or, if you are dependent on the tramadol like I was, it will throw you into ugly withdrawals.

A bit more:

The person who posted above is only half correct. You can take suboxone or subetex with tramadol, BUT only in a certain order. You must take the Suboxone/Subetex first, wait an hour or two for it to kick in, THEN take tramadol. However, the effect of the tramadol will be lessened greatly, which I will explain below.

Taking Tramadol first and then Suboxone/Subetex will cause "precipitated withdrawal" (Basically, the tramadol is a stronger opiate, it's in your brain, then the suboxone comes and kicks it out, but suboxone is weaker, so you sudenly go into full blown withdrawals)

It has nothing to do with the naloxone that is in Suboxone. It is not even absorbed into the bloodstream when taken sublingually.

Finally, the Tramadol will not have the same effect. Suboxone works because it binds to the recepetors in your brain, without activating them completely. It holds on strong, so if you take something like Tramadol, it will have to compete with the suboxone for the receptors. Most of the Tramadol will not make it to your brain, so the effects you receive will be greatly lessened.

You have to be VERY careful taking Subetex or Suboxone and other opiates. I have cut it as close as taking Suboxone 12 hours after using a normal opiate drug, HOWEVER, most doctors tell you to wait minimum 24 hours, or until you feel your in moderate stage withdrawal.

It is illegal for a doctor to prescribe Suboxone or Subutex online. They must have a face-to-face consultation with you. An online questionnaire is not sufficient to allow the doctor to legally prescribe to you. For that matter, a doctor needs a special license specifically to prescribe Suboxone/Subutex.

Buying drugs from online pharmacies that do not require prescriptions is DANGEROUS. These people are operating illegally, and there's no telling what kind of dangerous chemicals they could be sending you. If they're willing to operate illegally, then it stands to reason they're also capable of sending fake or tainted drugs.

There ARE legitimate online pharmacies, however, all of them require valid prescriptions, so you might as well just go to a doctor and take your prescription to a local pharmacy.

Suboxone is a very expensive drug, even more so because it's still under patent. Meaning, there is no generic version available. Its sister drug, Subutex, however, IS available generically.

Suboxone and Subutex contain the same active ingredient: an opiate called buprenorphine. However, while Subutex is pure buprenorphine, Suboxone has an added ingredient called naloxone. Naloxone blocks the opiate receptors in your brain, whereas buprenorphine is simply an opiate that does not get you high, and thus replaces the heroin or morphine or oxy or whatever you were taking. You are still an opiate addict when you're on buprenorphine, but you're a fully functioning addict, since you're not impaired by being high all the time.

Naloxone was originally added to Subutex to make the drug impossible to use intravenously. If you try to melt down and shoot up Suboxone, it won't work, because the naloxone will block your opiate receptors, making it impossible to get high.

Additionally, a person on Suboxone cannot get high on any opiate, which makes relapse pointless.

So, your doctor may want you on Suboxone at first (while your risk of relapse is highest), but eventually it would probably be best to switch to generic Subutex. It costs less money, and the naloxone in Suboxone can have unpleasant side effects, such as stomach aches, lack of appetite, and lack of libido. It basically blocks your pleasure sensors, which, in my opinion, is a bad thing.

Once you have been sober long enough -- at least one year -- you may want to ask to switch to generic Subutex. The drug companies don't want the doctor doing this, so he'll put up a fight. Ask if you could please switch over just for a month, as you have no appetite and no libido, and you suspect it's the Suboxone.

If he agrees, then next time you see him, tell him how wonderful you've been feeling without that horrible naloxone (this will probably be true), but let him switch you back to Suboxone for the next month, just to show you're a good sport.

Then, the month after that, tell him that switching back to the Suboxone has made you horribly nauseated and you've barely been able to eat a thing. Now, he HAS to switch you back to Subutex. As a doctor, his oath is to "first do no harm." Putting you back on a drug that makes you sick certainly qualifies as "harm."

Doctors play these kinds of games with you all the time, and sometimes you have no choice but to get down and dirty with them.

If you have no insurance (or your insurance doesn't cover Suboxone), you may be able to get help from the Suboxone Patient Assistance Program. However, they will only give you a month's worth of medication. To really kick an opiate addiction, you're going to need this medication for at least a year.

Years ago, I belonged to a program called Here to Help, which gave me a year's supply of Suboxone free. Their website doesn't explicitly say anything about it, but it's worth a try to call and ask. See the Related Link below for the website. You can also Google, "free suboxone treatment" or "free suboxone program."

See the other Related Links for a directory of doctors who prescribe Suboxone. You can also Google, "suboxone clinics in [insert your city/state here]."

One more thing: once you are on this drug, in the event of a painful injury -- broken leg, dislocated shoulder, hit and run, root canal, or anything else severely painful -- you must NEVER, EVER tell the EMTs or doctors that you take Suboxone/Subutex. If you do, they will not give you opiate painkillers. They will just leave you to suffer. As a former addict (doesn't matter if you've been clean 2 months or 20 years) you're considered a "liability," and treating you humanely is not worth the legal risk to them.

If anything, tell them you are allergic to naltrexone. That is what they'd give you if they gave you too much morphine and you stopped breathing. If you had Suboxone in you at the time, then giving you naltrexone would be very, very bad.