Narcissism

Opinion

The following is general information only. Briefly:

Borderline personality disorder is an emotional disorder that causes emotional instability and a chronic feeling of emptiness. The image you have of yourself is distorted and you feel worthless and flawed. You generally have anger management issues, impulsivity, mood swings and tend to push people away by your behavior even though you want to have close relationships. You feel anxious and stressed and may want to harm yourself. You can improve your life with therapy and treatment.

Narcissistic personality disorder is less common and a serious personality disorder involving an inflated sense of your own importance. The person with NPD needs an extraordinary amount of admiration from others and sets up a life where they use others as their supply source for that admiration. They exploit others as a way of life. They think they're superior to others even though their life history shows no evidence of special talents or accomplishments. They care nothing for the feeling's of others and hate being challenged. They think they deserve special treatment. They are demanding, insulting, manipulative, and need an audience. They do not make good partners in an intimate relationship.

Narcissists are pathological liars and create a false self that they display to others. They can be funny, engaging, helpful and seemingly generous, but no gifts or assistance comes with more strings attached. They require your absolute obedience to their "rules". They can drop a friend, relative or mate over the smallest slight, real or imagined. Estimates are that 75% are male. Due to the very nature of the disorder therapy is not often successful since they rarely are willing to admit they have any problem. Many think this disorder masks a deep seated lack of self esteem.

Common traits:

• Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance
• Believing self to be special and can associate only with equally special people
• Requiring constant admiration
• Having a sense of entitlement
• Taking advantage of others
• Having an inability to recognize needs and feelings of others
• Being envious of others
• Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner
• An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges
• Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships
• A lack of psychological awareness
• Difficulty with empathy
• Hypersensitivity to any slights or imagined insults
• Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt
• Flatters people who admire and affirm him
• Detests those who do not admire him
• Uses other people without considering the cost of that for them
• Pretends to be more important than he is
• Brags and exaggerates his achievements
• Claims to be an 'expert' about most things
• Cannot view the world from the perspective of another person
• No remorse or gratitude

Opinion

Think of a continuum, with Sensitivity at one extreme end and Insensitivity at the other. A Narcissist is close to the Insensitivity end, but a Borderline is close to the Sensitivity end. A Narcissist is halfway psychopathic. The difference is that they do have normal emotions. But they have no empathy.

A Borderline can often be empathic to a fault, taxing his or her strength and putting others before him or herself until it becomes health-threatening. Borderlines have an extremely alert cerebral cortex and are easily excited. And they are most often excruciatingly sensitive. Often, they also have an overbearing and self-punishing conscience.

Opinion

There are many similarities. Actually the Borderline and Narcissist both are wrapped up in their own universe with little or no concern for others and how their behavior affects others. However the N is wrapped up in his own self image and buries his emotions while the BPD is wrappd up in their imediate needs and have no control over their own emotions.

The BPD is capable of empathy however because they have feelings for themselves as far as pain rejection etc. She only seems to empathize with you for a while only and only if it pertains to her universe.

NPD expects others to revolve around his universe as if to be a satellite dependent on worshipping him as a god. While the BPD wraps her universe around you as if to fuse your very existense to themselves, you are her universe. Both NPD and BPD are extremely fearfull of abandonment but handle it in two different ways. BPD will cling to you while the NPD ever concious of his self image will abandon you before you have a chance to abandon him.

Both of them have excessive Rage emotions built up. The BPD will dump on you while the NPD dumps you altogether. (I use male for NPD and female for BPD because that is how the genders are likey to be diagnosed - however either gender can suffer from either disorder)

BPD has an arrested emotional development set at age three while NPD is set at age six. Some authorities suggest it's all all along the same continuim as Narcissistic Personality Disorder. With NPD at one end and BPD at the other. They are both in the same "B" cluster of personality disorders also with histrionic and antisocial personality disorders. In fact many BPDS have been co-morbidly diagnosed as also having NPD. The degree of functionality among three of them is something like this Histrionics are more able to function in society than narcisssists who in turn fare better than Borderlines.

Those close to Borderline or Narcissist will find ways to deal with them are very much the same. Also the effect they have on others close to them are stikingly similar. Manipulating, lies, deception, self centeredness. and most of all a complete lack of concern for anyone but themselves. They just chose to cover it up in different ways.

Opinion

Both disorders tend to over-emphasize the centrality of the person who has the disorder in the wider scope. The differences tend to be in terms of motivation and the payoff.

BPD tend to be heavily driven by a bipolar fear - fear of being hurt through intimate exposure of themselves to others, and fear of being isolated and abandoned. One may argue that these are two sides of the same fear, but with regards to the social expression of this fear, it results in rapid and unpredictable flip-flopping between adoration and repulsion.

NPD tend to be heavily driven by autoerotic interest - pleasing themselves takes on a higher priority than fearing retribution, although high profile NPDs also tend to share paranoia - they seek to defend their perfect image of themselves and are easily frustrated by confrontations or challenges to their self-image.

Both disorders can result in the individual losing all sense of boundaries of self due to lack of emotional discipline. The difference is often that BPD will recognize and admit that they have feelings of inadequacy and will even use expression of those feelings to prevent isolation. NPD will never recognize such feelings - the external world serves either to support their grandiosity or it cowers in secretive jealousy.

Both disorders also include the attitude that they are special cases and therefore have special entitlements or are above the law. In the case of BPD, this can result in erratic stalking behavior or pre-emptive defense tactics that come off to stable individuals as excessive and/or overtly aggressive. In the case of NPD, this results in exploitative behavior towards any who are perceived as weak, poor, naive, etc. Many sexual abuse cases involve NPD - often with children who were also raised by NPD parents and are thereby groomed to respond to the emotional needs of adults. NPD patients often struggle with pornography and narcotics addictions.

Both disorders utilize deceit. BPD will unconsciously rescript historical events in order to justify their behavior and avoid shame and ostracism. Deceit for a BPD is closer to an involuntary trauma response. NPD will consciously fabricate historical events to portray a reflection of their ideal self-image. Deceit for an NPD is a form of willful self-delusion.

BPD has slightly better treatment odds than NPD - though both disorders are very challenging for any therapist to treat. In most cases treatment stops either because of the client's grandiosity or paranoia. At times treatment stops when clients become too much of a drain on the therapist's psyche or time schedule.

ANSWER: I lived with my N for 6 months in HIS home. He told me I needed to move because someone else was moving in. I found a place of my own. The morning of my move, he didnt believe me that i was REALLY moving. The next day, he showed up at my new place and hasnt left MY residence in 6 months. I let him use me for warmth all winter, fed him, washed his clothes and paid for nights out. Last week, I said to him "GAME OVER. ONE NARCISSIST TO ANOTHER, YOU THINK THIS APARTMENT IS REAL?" "WELL, ITS NOT!!! I BOUGHT A HOUSE ELSEWHERE AND THIS IS JUST FOR KICKS!" The look on his face was priceless. I told him "I ALWAYS TOLD YOU, ANYTHING YOU CAN DO, I CAN DO BETTER" He believes i am an N too (for the record, I am NOT) I just needed im out of my life. I havent heard from him in just over a week. It feels great. His mind is racing and it is HIM that is looking back and questioning where did HE go wrong, and how could he have not seen it.

Yes you can and its rather easy to do so playing on their ego.

I think we wonder if this is possible...if we can get them back for the sake of revenge and healing and ultimately understanding. I think that to others these people are transformative. You meet them at a certain point in your life and they will change you. You determine if it is for the better or for the worse. At first you try to figure out what the problem is and how to resolve it. Why does this person behave this way -- much the way we try to figure out how to prevent a tragedy once one has occurred. I think if you reach the point of arguing and you argue back you may have a difficult time manipulating. When I met the one I knew, one of the first things I said to him is, "I am using you". At some point later he told me that I was the most intelligent person he'd ever met. I think in general my life has been made better in knowing him and I think it has helped me understand some elements in my self that are closed off from emotion.

Somebody who uses you also gives you power over them, and the more they use you the more power they give you ... think about it.

A very simple example is that if someone uses you as a meal ticket they have also given you total control over their financial welfare. They are dependent upon you not to see that aspect.

As long as you are used you are useful, and as long as you are useful you have considerable power at your disposal, if you choose to use it to manipulate.

HOWEVER, should you choose to manipulate anyone, particularly for self gratification?

If you start to manipulate as a way of life what kind of person will you become? I am tempted to say:

What does it profit a man if he gains a whole host of Narcissists, but loses his soul.

I considered manipulation only an option once I discovered he was an N 'and' I felt I was in danger certainly emotionally/psychologically but also physically. I needed to get my life's belongings from him and move out of town easily and safely. So basically, I didn't ruffle any feathers. I never let on to the seriousness of the situation (for me), I didn't truly express how awful he was making me feel, and I kept my true opinions to myself. This worked. But that's the furthest I took it and it was in the form of self defense. Otherwise, I would caution everyone here to think very carefully about learning how to manipulate. As honest and truly good hearted of a person I am, when I did even the the most minor of manipulation (above), I still had a taste of what you can gain from manipulation and how it could become addicting, or at least a bad habit.

I made a conscience decision (as I have many times throughout my life) to 'be different' than my abusers. Becoming in 'any' way like them makes us no different. For me, I choose the higher road and strive for something better. I KNOW for a fact if I were to manipulate, I would feel terrible about myself, I would lose self-respect and in the end, it would only bring me unhappiness for the person I've become and those that have been hurt in the wake of my poor choices.

There is TOO much suffering in this world. We can only control US and can choose not to contribute to the already alarming degrees of suffering on this earth. Every day you do not cause harm, you are actively reducing the amount of suffering and pain in the world. That is a great way to end your day - knowing you have made a difference toward making this world a better place and leaving a legacy (because it is contagious) of goodness rather than that which can only lead to pain and agony (either within yourself or in the heart and soul of another).

Again, an N is easy to manipulate but so were each of us who got involved with one and how did that make us feel? "Paying it forward" in this case only perpetuates the very thing that caused our greatest suffering and the need for a site like this in the first place. Leaving the N and moving on to love and live, is the best legacy each of us can leave. I say this to myself as much as I say it to you. Best wishes, AlwaysLearning

I don't think this question was actually really answered directly, so allow me to put my 2 cents here.

I think a n can be manipulated to an extent, but they are VERY VERY DISCERNING and QUICK, so I wouldn't advise you trying to DUPE them. They catch on very swiftly to your attempts at "beating them at their own game" and the "what's good for the goose, is good for the gander" will get your goose COOKED IN SHORT ORDER!

I'm in the process of trying to 'get back at' my ex N and have had to go through some pretty elaborate planning to get this going. I can't even begin to explain the 4 months of madness I experienced with this person. I have been able to manipulate her verbally to meet up with me for dinner, but I think she knows I'm up to something. It might be impossible.

Oh my goodness yes you can manipulate a narcissist as long as you don?t allow him to know that you know he is one. Depending on what it is you want from him will depend on how you play out the scenario. A narcissist loves to help, be of assistance, and show his power, because he thinks that the end result will win him loads and loads of admiration and adornment and it will give him a reason to be able to ask you for something in return. Not that you have to gratify him by any means you can always say, ?something has come up?, ?I threw it away?, ?I can?t seem to find it?. You get my point. I was married to a narcissist for 9 years before he walked out the door in pursuit of having sex with as many women as he could charm the pants off of. The dear man ended up with genital herpes, and a yeast infection all over his face. He called me Princess until the day he left than I became a witch. He is so cute when he gets all angry and foul because he doesn?t realize he is his own worst enemy. I don?t get angry with him, or yell or scream nor do I compliment him or sooth him I just stand with a smile on my face and stare. I know I sound really horrible, but really I?m not it?s more like being at a sideshow. I get all sorts of things from him just by playing out the scenario to fit what ever it is I want. Need some more help just ask. Remember the narcissists life is a drama waiting to be played out.

Yes, I have many more questions. I am married to a bad one apparently. I would love to talk to you more to compare notes, gain some insight as I am just finding out about this although Im not quite sure how to contact you. I am new to this site. I am desperately trying to learn how to deal with him. thanks!

Yes, it seems possible to manipulate an " N" as long as you do not let them know you are on to them. Mine would go to great lengths to show his abilities. It seems such a waste of an otherwise brilliant mind. Also, as stated by others, they are clever and fast, so be careful if you choose to step into this water.

Yes, I think it is possible to manipulate a narcissist. Narcissists are clever, but fools. Self-denial of reality and their problems makes them fools. Fearless and often stupid selfish transparent fools. They become very caught up in the pursuit of obtaining something from you. They sometimes get entangled in their own dependency and lies. A con-artist rides on the bet he can run his game on a mark. He rides it out to the end. A narcissist is clever, but remember he does not see himself or others fully...so yes, it'd be possible to use his very pride to string him along to get what you want. Sometimes, you just can't help but resort to using their tactics to protect yourself. Don't make it easy for them to keep taking.

If someone started physically attacking you, you would be justified in using force to defend yourself. A narcissist attacks usually attacks in sneaky, nonphysical manners; therefore you must defend yourself appropriately. If manipulation works, so be it; he certainly doesn't give his behavior toward you a second thought. Look at manipulation of a narcissist as emotional self defense.

Narcissists are "abuse controlled". They lack a sense of self worth. They are controlled by the "judges" in the room, or by the people who judge others on some self worth measuring stick. So, first, to manipulate a narcissist, give them a personal compliment that starts with "You are ..." that shows you measure people's self worth. Example: "Oh wow, I can't believe you figured that out. You are so smart." Or, you can ridicule others with the narcissist and imply that he is better than other people. The narcissist's self worht will start to rise. These are "pleasure nuggets" for a narcissist. After you've hooked the narcissist with a "pleasure nugget", deliver them a very covert underhanded nugget of pain. Give them an abusive comment that is so subtle, underhanded, unexpected, or humerous that they can't fight back. Like, "oh, you're married? Who's the unlucky woman?" Or, just do it through body language and look down your nose at them or snort with smart-assness at something they say that is a little ridiculous. The more subtly you do this, the more effective it is. Then, the narcissist will play the "rat game" for you. If you give a rat a piece of good food when it pushes a lever, it will keep pushing that lever even if the lever starts delivering it surges of pain. The narcissists will try harder and harder to get you to deliver another "pleasure nugget". And, they won't mess with you as much because they'll be too scared that you'll fight back.

I was (and am still kinda) involved with a narcissist of the cruellest kind. My experience of manipulation was not very successful cause this guy was clever, scaringly so...BUT...you can sucessfully manipulate a narcissist when you detatch yourself from them emotionally. I say this because when the narcissist finds out about the deceipt be prepared for the heave-ho. You can also only manipulate them when they are requiring something from you, eg, your love, awe etc. If they don't want anything from you then you are as good as thrown on the rubbish tip and you wont even get to say 'boo', let alone manipulate them. Narcissists are the greatest discarders of other people so you really need to have some impact on their lives, no matter how small. Remember a narcissist will only be foolishly manipulated if he thinks he has control over you...he is not interested in anyone or anything he cannot control; hence not many narcissists like cats but are ok with dogs. But don't be a dog. If you are with one of these parasites think about leaving them because trust me they will leave you, physically. Emotionally they were never ever really there anyway.

I say YES. The only way to really do it is to no longer be caught up in the illusion. By that time you might not want to take the time. It was part of my personal weening process. It seems against my value system and I am not necessarily proud of being able to figure out this kind of process...but it did help me get away from him. So I needed to do what ever it took to detach& accept reality, more to the point his reality. I myself tested out a mechanical like word process. I yelled when I was suposed to yell just so that I could storm off and get back home to my own bed.All the things that he knows are good ways of pushing buttons, I just smiled and seemed interested in rather than aposed to. I also tried on an old role that at one time was natural to me not super imposed and that was to act as a child, slightly demanding yet playful. It was funny just watching him have to acess the new info and work with it. This usually brought up anger, surprize surprize. it really didn't matter what I did. I could do the same thinngs and get all smiles and cheers one scene and absolute disdain the next. It got boring. Nothing was really happening. Eather way it is a lot of work. The one thing I did not want to do is really become so hateful/self consumed that I would actually enjoy the process of manipulation. That did not happen. I really just got tired & bored of the routine, cycles and at some point dis apointment was in the past and experiencing something real, truly connective and wonderful was on my desire list for things to do with my energy. Another thing, the manipulation is in my mind. he will never know about it because he is blind to his actions.

I found out that my N was an N at the same time his best friend did. We compared notes and found out that this N was manipulating, isolating and playing us both. We decided to get rid of him, so together we concocted a plan that dealt him seveal irreversible 'blows'. We orchestrated the scenerio (without breaking any laws) and he didn't even know i was involved. It was important that he did not know of my involvement because he was violent yet his exfriend was not scared of him. His friend has some juicy dirt on him so he won't go after him, he'll likely just move on. So far, the manipulation has taken 4 months and is finally winding down. I have the desired distance to become 'detatched' from him so I don't get drawn back in. We did get back at him and turned one of his own games on him. It worked and hopefully he will just move on.

My advice is not to go out and seek to manipulate or get revenge on an N, but allow yourself to get good and angry, it's part of the healing process and get out of the relationship without delay.

If you have the opportunity and the support, by all means, plan your attack and make sure you make no mistakes. N's are clever and it truly amazed me how suspicious they are. The can see what you are doing if they are not involved (this N's mother - also an N - recognized one of my manovers and called me on it, it's like she had xray vision into my soul! Very scary. She was not involved in the revenge-chase away plot but I'm sure she has coached him to get rid of me and my his exfriend. It was like writing a screen play, every detail, timing and angle had to be worked out. We are both Non's and it was so exhausting. I can only imagine the energy the Narcissit exudes on a daily basis trying to create a world of their own vision.

Been there, but don't recommend it unless it's to truly save, protect or mfg. a way to get the N out of your life. Be careful and it's best doing it with another non that has discovered the same N's deceptions.

Yes, definitely, I think narcissists have been the victim of other narcissists at some point during their young life, and got hurt. They learned to detect other narcissists and avoid them... that is how they became narcissists themselves....

I don't think any narcissists want to be narcissists, i mean... at least they probably want to have a taste of what it is on the other side, to really feel.. and to let yourself go...

but they scared and at the least hitch theyll get back in their shield.

So why don't yall people try to find a way of helping them instead of finding ways of being cruel to them. This talk doesnt really encourage them to change.

I think you can manipulate a narcissist.. If you are a potential source of narcissistic supply the more leverage you have I suppose..

These answers are all super helpful. I recently had my first experience with an N that I was conscious of (though I think I'd been exposed to them quite a bit as a child), and it was super super painful. He's still trying to paint me as a horrible person, for instance telling me "I hope you are more in touch with reality now" in a really patronizing way, as though I were the one with all the problems.. hehe the ironies run deep in our interactions.

I want to address that second most recent answer, about why don't we find a way of helping them instead of being cruel. What I want to say to that is that many many people do try to help narcissists, all the time. At least, that is my impression. For instance, I gave hours and hours of my time to my recent N buddy.. doing spiritual and energy work with the guy, and counseling him on his past etc etc. In fact it was even working for a little bit, and he would kind of calm down.. but then, he would come up against the wall of his own incompetence (usually on some minor technical matter, he claimed to be able to do "everything" so it wasn't hard for these failures to crop up), and the tables would then turn viciously and suddenly. Faced with the task of avoiding his own imperfection, he would start to attack my sense-of-self & self-esteem in meaner ways than ever.

And I agree, that most of them probably don't want to be this way, however for now I am still doubtful as to whether they can be helped just by a friend or lover. Maybe in a more formal rehab program though I don't think those exist yet for N's (pity!).

At this point, I am still in the anger/healing phase.. and the part that upsets me the most is that I gave him all kinds of opportunities and new contacts throughout our friendship and now I fear he is trying his hardest to turn those people against me... because, he knows that I have seen through his lies, but some of them are still duped cuz its still such a recent interaction (someone with mainly only 'new' friends is a BIG red flag for that person being a narcissist by the way!!).

Luckily, as someone else mentioned, N's really are their own worst enemy. There's not a lot you have to do other than get away from them because they are going to sabotage any of the new stuff that they falsely create around themselves.

Like I say, right now I'm still really really angry.. but I hope that someday I can forgive and wish the best for this poor N soul who is not really feeling any human companionship and love. Also I hope that I will be safe as I interact with him over the coming month, since he is part of an organization now that I am involved in (and where I originally introduced him, sigh).

Any advice on how to handle N's within an organizational structure is much appreciated!! Like, how much should I tell to whom? I'd love to be honest with my colleagues about what this N is truly like (and warn them frankly!), but I'm concerned they are still wrapped up in the false tale the N has spun and wouldn't believe me.

ANSWER

I'm really glad to find this discussion.

I was with my N for 17 years, and what I have seen is that his disorder has grown much worse over time.

It appeared as depression or uncertainty in the beginning.

I see now that there was manipulation going on the whole time, but it wasn't until ten years into our time that things became so overt.

And I of course tried everything, not understanding what I was dealing with. It seemed perhaps like addiction or early childhood stuff (which it is) , but he never stayed with any therapy.

Now it is over and in this last year I have had to face the devastation of losing all I thought was real with him, as well as all that WAS real: the connections with his family and home, the history of our children growing up together...so many threads.

He has ruptured all of it.

I say YES, an N can be manipulated, and I also agree that they have no trust, are almost paranoid if they feel they are being controlled. But it is also true I think that in their self-absorption they can't see when they are being "worked" in certain situations.

As part of my detachment and attempt to self-heal, I have instigated spending time with him doing things we always did, so that I could look at it all through a different lens.

It is a risky way to deal with it, but it worked for me.

I was almost conducting and experiment so that I could see how he acts and reacts without my emotional attachment to wanting him to be "with" me.

I saw that he was completely willing for me to be the "other woman" in his new relationship. Rather than cheating ON me he would be willing to cheat WITH me.

If I presented things to his advantage and made sure nothing was threatening, if I made myself seem slightly needy and very harmless, he let down his guard and I could get him to do as I wished.

I didn't want anything harmful towards him. I wanted to get my power back , I wanted to be able to spend time with his family in his hometown, to honor the sincerity and honesty of my relationships with all of them and with him, too. He had the real thing from me, but tragically, REAL is the one thing he doesn't grasp.

So my question is:

Anyone have thoughts on how to deal with this? The world we hared is and was precious to me.

Is it possible to maintain my connection? It seems the only way to do it IS through manipulation.

His mother is very old and frail and has no influence on the situation. His brothers are somewhat distant, they know there is something wrong, but don't really engage with him about it. His life is so compartmentalized that no one sees the whole picture but me and a psychiatrist or two.

I'm playing this by ear, and appreciate any feedback.

ANSWER:

In one way, this question is fundamentally flawed; the very sickness of a narcissist revolves around their viewing youas merely an extension of themselves or a means to their furtherance of their inordinate self-interest.

Primarily, any desire to further engage with the N is undoubtedly giving acknowledgement to a relationship which has already been tainted by their loathing. However; no matter how desirable it may be to cease all contact with such immediately, obviously in the case of work colleagues, family and loved ones, a different approach may be required.

On the matter of return manipulation, I would say that unless during the course of your negating the N's power they inadvertently assist you (taking the utmost care to not be duped), then the safest bet is to vote with your feet.

A fully blown N (with NPD) is not worth the time taken to attempt to divide out any genuine friendship they may intend towards you, put simply they cannot afford the luxury of friendship when their own self-interest is so all consuming as to be positively dangerous. Such separation will undoubtedly be accompanied by a degree of fear, but a person so emotionally stunted is in fact, very ill and needs help, honest and treatment.

Also; it is possible to mistake someone's actions as narcissistic, when in fact they are not. Discernment, making the decision to defer judgement and a more thorough investigation may be required to ascertain the level of culpability and actual level of disorder.

Ask yourself: How can it be that something so closely related to something as simple as selfishness can be so overlooked, misunderstood and subject to frequent abuse ?

Are we not taught that such is wrong from a small child ? Often ? And do not even evil parents teach their children so ?

Where is the line to be drawn between being a charismatic individual. A person with flair, strong-minded, independent, not afraid to take the lead ?

We are but one of billions of people on the planet. However important we are each in God's eyes, yet there is no reason to suppose that we are fundamentally more important that anybody else.

If a person truly wants to be an individual, let them do so in their pursuit of righteousness. In this particular selfishness, God is sure to bless you.

If that requires you to make money, raise a family, fight or take flight from your enemies, then so be it.

Only when we allow ourselves the freedom to pursue the right can we become something which can truly benefit the human race (whether they accept it or not...).

The mistake narcissists make is that they are making an argument for whether it be in our/their interest to be self-serving.

But the real question is; in what way is being separate/joined to others leading to genuine righteousness, repentance and an approved relationship with The Creator ?